Pod Cast Guest: Dr. Kasra Khorasani
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Kasra Khorasani Psychiatrist, Psychoanalyst, Group Therapist and LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methods facilitator, is on faculty of Medicine at University of Toronto. He enjoys applying Psychoanalytic and Group theories in creative ways such as LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methods Group Therapy, founding of TS Medical Centre in Toronto, Sidewalk Dream Analysis, and most recently On-Line supportive, therapeutic and educational groups for MDs during the Covid-19Pandemic.
[ Introduction ]
Welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Unlock Your creativity, expand your mind, and have good clean fun with Strategic Play founder and LEGO® Serious Play® Master Trainer, Jacquie Lloyd Smith, and creative force and curious mind, Mark Millhone.
Mark:
Hello, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Hello, Mark. How are you?
Mark:
I am excellent. And I'm really excited for this conversation. I have been through LEGO® Serious Play® training, and I have experienced the happy sense of flow and the sense of connection with the people who I was going through a workshop with. And I've always kind of been curious: What's happening in the brain when that happens? What's responsible for these sensations? And I think that our guest is going to be someone who can really shed light on that.
Jacquie:
Yes. He's definitely an expert.
Mark:
Kasra Khorasani is a psychiatrist, a psychoanalyst group therapist, and LEGO® Serious Play® facilitator. He's on the faculty of medicine at the University of Toronto, and he enjoys applying psychoanalytic and group theories in creative ways, such as LEGO group therapy, founding the TS Medical Center in Toronto, Sidewalk Dream Analysis, and most recently, online supportive therapeutic and educational groups for medical doctors during the COVID-19 pandemic. He just has such a wide span of knowledge and such a depth of human concern and connection to everything that he shares.
Jacquie:
And he has a house full of LEGO. He is a huge LEGO fan, and he was pondering: How could I use LEGO® in my work as a psychiatrist?
Mark:
So he just reached out to LEGO and said like, “How could I do this?” and then they put them in touch with you?
Jacquie:
Yes. He's an example of somebody that has taken sort of an agnostic tool, LEGO® Serious Play®, and made it very specialized and applied in the work that he does with a psychiatric population. That said, a lot of the things that he talks about is really good for all of us to know.
Mark:
Awesome. Well, let's listen to that conversation.
[ Interview ]
Mark:
Dr. Kas, thank you so much for joining us for the podcast. Jacquie, why don't you tell us the prompt that you gave Kas?
Jacquie:
Well, Kas does a lot of work in group psychotherapy. And so I started off asking him if he could build something about neuroscience. But we came up with the idea that he would build something about group processes and empathy and all the kinds of things that work in order to show compassion to people, to help them get better.
Mark:
Terrific. And I will give just a quick picture of what this looks like. What I'm seeing is sort of a blue pool, and in this pool, there are what appear to me to be ducks of all kinds. Have I nutshelled that well? Is there more detail that you can bring to that description Kas?
Kas:
No, no. They're just ducks. They are very weird looking ducks, if you look at them. Some of them don't really look like a duck, but in spirit they're a duck.
Jacquie:
So tell us about these. Give us a little bit more of the backstory.
Kas:
Well actually, I did not build all these ducks. You asked me to put something together. And I went back into my box of goodies, and these ducks are all made by people who were in one of my in-patient psychiatry groups at the hospital I work at, so people with severe mental illness. And you would have people who are incredibly psychotic and people who are just like you and I, but in great crisis and ended up in a psych unit. And this was a collection of the ducks that people have created in one of the groups. And I put them together because it really talks to what I do and how I work and how this group, I think. And then my patients told me, too, that they really like it and they really get something from it. So this depicts that.
Jacquie:
So that's great. So you went back into your goodie bag and you pulled out what I would call authentically built ducks. So how do you use a duck exercise in your group psychotherapy?
Kas:
Yes. So they got all the Lego pieces in front of them. And then I say, “Okay. I'm going to play nice soft classical music.” And I say, “You guys got one minute to build a duck.” And some really start putting something together. And in the spirit of LSP, I tell other people, “Don't even think about it. Just let your hands do the work and just put something together.” And so the music is going and people are putting this thing together, and I go around and help people who can't stick Lego pieces together. And after a minute, we'll stop. And I'll ask people to raise their ducks and show it to each other. And just by grabbing our ducks, raising it, and showing it to each other, everyone’s kind of smiling a little bit because there’s kind of all these crazy ducks.
Then I ask them to say something special about their duck: What makes your duck special? So one person would say: Well, this is a square duck, or this is a platform duck, or this is a talking duck. This is a flying duck. And every time they say that I mirror that back to them: Oh, so this is a square duck. This is a platform duck. This is a talking duck. This is a flying duck.
And I do my little spiel about, “Isn't that amazing? We all got the same number of LEGO. They're all the same, but they all created different ducks and they're all unique and they're all special. And they all share the same pond and they create this pond. And I sometimes take a duck out and says, “See, if I just remove this duck from the pond, the whole thing looks different. If I put it back, everything is back the way it used to be. So we all actually matter and we’re all unique and important.” So that's how I start the group.
Jacquie:
Wonderful. So it's really about validating each person's idea, even if there's nothing much to say about this duck. It’s sort of validating, naming.
Kas:
And just before I even validate their name, when they say something and they experience the other people in the group listening to them in that tiny moment, they experience that I have said who I am. So you're actually validating yourself in a very subtle way. And then other people are also listening and are modeling the reflection that I’ve really seen you and I’ve heard you. You are a square duck, right. And other people are also listening and it's repeated over and over again. So this act of you acknowledge who you are, and we accept you without judging you. I'm not going to say that's an ugly square duck or that doesn't even look like a duck, right? We don't, again, you're all just accepting each other for who we are at that moment in the room.
However, we share our opinions of our duck. And this has validation in a way, it really—validation is one part of it, but right there and then you have what we call universality that people feel they're not alone. They're all kind of the same. You’re kind of creating cohesion and trust in the group. Okay?
So in this group, people are not judging each other. So we can, again, all of this stuff really happens automatically, unconsciously, and rapidly, where a level of safety is introduced into the group. And the facilitator is modeling that and that safety is really the cornerstone of all I do in this group, which would become the cornerstone of—that's what you need to build empathy and compassion on. You have to have that level of safety where people feel a little bit okay with being there and being open to each other.
Mark:
So fascinating. I just had like a neuroscience question. When you were saying that it was beyond validation, I think part of what I find so intriguing about the LEGO process is that it's a way of grounding in physical space an embodied sense of what is inside. And I love the drawing that you have here, because it creates a social context for that physical embodiment process.
You put them into a constellation, a circle, a common pond where they all have a place and they can sort of see where they are in that constellation. I don't know if there's research on this or if you just have your own theories about it, just from a neuroscience perspective, what's happening there? What is it that takes us beyond just validation, as you said?
Kas:
Again, it's partly to do with other things besides the LEGO. LEGO is just a tool that we're using. Mind you, it’s a wonderful tool because it's 3D and we are touching it. And as you touch and play with a 3D object, a different part of your brain lights up compared to if you're seeing an image or something that you see but you can’t touch. Like a different parts of your brain lights up. Again, I don't know the theory exactly, but I can see practically that we feel that desire to connect with each other when that larger part of our brain is lighting up. You may know about mirror neurons, you guys? There are neurons that are…
Jacquie:
So talk a little bit about that. That's interesting. Go for it.
Kas:
Yes. So mirror neurons are certain neurons in our heads, which again have been kind of discovered in the ‘80s. And the interesting thing about the mirror neurons are they are not just sensory or motor. They're both sensory and motor. They can do both things. That's what makes them very special.
Jacquie:
Yes. Can you maybe explain a little bit more about how—what is exactly a mirror neuron? What would it look like, let's say, to somebody. So if I'm experiencing it, why am I experiencing it? And maybe just talk a little bit about what happens.
Kas:
Okay. And I use this little story that the mirror neuron people tell everyone about how it came to be. These researchers were trying to understand how a monkey’s brain cells fire when the monkey is grabbing things. And they had this very skinny electrode that goes right into the nerve cell and gets—a kind of noise comes out when the cell fires and the muscle contracts and the monkey grabs something. And by chance, when the researcher had gone for a coffee break and forgot to turn the machine off, the researcher goes to grab another coffee mug and suddenly the machine goes: Bing.
And the researcher looks over to see whether the monkey is grabbing anything. And the monkey is not grabbing anything at all. The monkey is just watching the researcher grab the coffee cup. So the cell in the monkey's brain that is responsible for grabbing a cup fired when the monkey was just looking at somebody else grab the cup. So that's the fascinating—so the same cell that senses or picked up that a cup was grabbed fired in the monkey as if the monkey herself is grabbing a cup.
Jacquie:
Interesting. I've heard—and I think it was Sarah Moyle who was talking about this is why we love to watch people that are doing graphic facilitation. That when they're drawing and we watch somebody who is drawing, it makes us feel good, like we're drawing. And I'm sure it was her that was saying it.
Kas:
And if—this is a wonderful research on that. If you and I are sitting together and you grab a cup of coffee and I'm watching you, the same neurons in my head fires as if I'm grabbing a cup of coffee, right? However, if you put a plexiglass between us, you're the same distance apart, but a barrier where I cannot be touching you, I'm not able to reach out and touch you, my mirror neurons fire less.
Jacquie:
Oh, interesting.
Kas:
You have to, like your system has to have the sense that I can touch and connect with that thing, and then my mirror neurons fires more. That's why if you're in a stadium and watching a basketball game, right, or watching a game in real life, you feel the emotions when someone scores a basket. You feel you've scored a basket then. But if you're watching it on TV, it is less of an enjoyable event. That's why live is so much more fun.
Jacquie:
Oh my goodness. You could be—you should be working for Ticketmaster right now.
Kas:
Yes. Exactly. Bring your mirror neurons and don’t leave your mirror neurons. You’ll have way more fun.
Jacquie:
So that's so great. Okay. So now maybe take us into the world of LSP, because I think you were going to—that was great that you explained them, but now let's bring it back to the duck exercise and tell us how you feel that the mirror neurons would be activated in, let's say, group psychotherapy using the duck.
Kas:
So mirror neurons, a lot of people are thinking at least there is a connection with empathy and there are neurons, right? First, they thought these were empathy neurons. But again, they're not really—empathy is way more complex than what the mirror neurons do, in my opinion. Mirror neurons just help us predict what was the intention behind someone doing what they did or trying to predict where they're going to go. So mirror neurons helps us with that partially, right?
So the importance of that is when you're sitting in a group, that's why like in-person groups are very different than Zoom groups. In Zoom groups, we can’t touch each other. So we’re really going in our left brain way more. In-person groups, we are very much more—there our mirror neurons are more activated and a lot of nonverbal communications is going back and forth.
So when I'm attending to somebody else in the group, when I'm attending, I'm really allowing room for my mirror neurons to be more activated. And as I'm listening to the person attending—I shouldn't say listening. When I'm attending to them, my emotional resonance with the other person becomes more possible.
So if you're low energy, I can become low energy. If you're high energy, my energy goes up. Just when you have a tiny little baby, when the baby's crying then they all feel upset and crying. When the baby's happy, they're all smiling and giggly. We are just resonating with the other individuals’ feeling state, right?
And that's why you keep telling people, small groups and attend to each other. When you're attending to each other, you’re allowing for yourself, your whole physiology, to resonate with the other person's physiology. Right? So that's the first stage of empathy. Then as you ask people to tell you what it is, what their story is of what they're saying, you do have a perspective—their perspective around what the story is.
You might have a different story about that model, if you look at it. But then you hear their story, then you hear—you're seeing their story. And if what we call, if you can mentalize—and by mentalizing I mean it's an intellectual activity of trying to figure out what makes that person say that story now. At least try to get a storyline, like a backstory about what is it about this person that makes them who they are right now for them to tell this story, right? So that becomes the mentalizing part of empathy. So I got the emotional resonance, hearing their perspective, kind of figuring out why they're doing what they're doing.
And when you do—when you're open to those three things, then you can actually walk in their shoes, right? Because you have their feelings state, you kind of see how they're seeing it, and you have an idea about what made them do what they're doing. What made them say or see things that they're doing or seeing things. Mind you, a psychopath can do that too.
Jacquie:
Right.
Kas:
A psychopath can do those three things also, right. Now what makes empathy wonderful is the next two levels of it, which is when you're listening to this person and you're caring for them. It’s like I'm caring for you as you're sharing all of these things with me, and I want to do something to make your struggles better or for you to feel heard or understood. So I am actually doing something to kind of benefit you after having done those three stages of really understanding and walking in your shoes. And then the fifth stage of empathy is after I've done all of that and you feel better for being seen and heard, I feel good about it, right? A psychopath is missing those last two parts, in my opinion.
Jacquie:
Okay. So you're saying Psychopath Smith missed the part that I care for them?
Kas:
They're not interested. They don't really care if you're feeling bad or good. And then they doing all of that really, they want to get something out of it for themselves. They're not really feeling good because you felt good because they empathize with you, right? It's done for their own benefit, positive or negative.
Jacquie:
Right. And for a long time, we used to think that psychopaths couldn't do—that they didn't read or understand how other people feel. And now we know that they totally do and use it to their advantage.
Kas:
Oh my god, they do. Yes. Yes. Yes. They very much do. They're very attuned. They’re so good at picking it up.
Jacquie:
Because they need that information.
Kas:
And they are not, again I’m not an expert in that, but they're not distracted by their own emotional stuff. They’re very much focused on where you're at. A psychopath can read you so much better than I can. Because when I'm engaged with you, all my other emotions come up. All my issues come up. I kind of go into my own reveries, right? And for me, empathy—proper, wonderful, productive empathy—is always mutual. It’s like when I'm empathizing with you, in a way you're empathizing with me. It’s not a one-way street, in my opinion. And it's never perfect. It’s a process. I could never walk in your shoes. I could never do—know why you're doing what you're doing.
So for me, empathy is just the process. I'm attempting to be empathic. I'd rather look at it that way that I'm empathizing with you. If I could use—change the language as I’m really trying to empathize with you, I will never say I really empathize with you.
Jacquie:
Right.
Kas:
Because that I think is wrong. It's an attempt to kind of understand each other and it feels good. Yes.
Jacquie:
It's sort of like when I hear people say, “I know how you feel.” And often, people will say their pain is so great, “How could you possibly know how I feel?” And I think that it takes away from their struggle in a way, if we try to say, “Yes. Oh yes. I've been there. That happened to me.” That's really…
Kas:
That's so patronizing.
Jacquie:
Yes. It's so patronizing. Exactly, exactly. So to say, “I'm trying.”
Kas:
Yes, “I'm trying.” That’s so much more accurate. “I hear what you're saying. It brings up some sort of pain in me, which I think may be similar to what you're experiencing,” right? I can't say I know exactly what you're going through. It’s, “ I know, something comes up in me. I'm resonating, and this is coming up for me. Wow. Let me share with you what I'm feeling as I'm hearing your story.” And that people appreciate, because you're kind of not telling them, “I know exactly how you're feeling.” But you say, “You’re so important. I'm connected with you, and this has come up in me.” And I’m kind of twisting the words. It's a wonderful gift that's being given back and forth. So empathy, for me, is just like Christmas all over again, where you're giving a gift and you're receiving a gift. And it's always a surprise when you open the gift about what it is.
Both when I'm trying to empathize with you and also when you bring something up in me, which I was unaware of, is also a gift inside of me for me as I'm opening up. And I think it's just the multiple gifts that just keeps open, like Russian dolls, I suppose you can just keep opening and opening and opening and you can kind of go forever, I think, which is wonderful.
Jacquie:
And it also, I think, illustrates how hard this work is to do. And I think that people that are listening, when we have a variety of people that are listening to this, LSP facilitators and also people that are using LSP perhaps in—because Kas, you introduced me to a few people that are using LSP now in their therapeutic intervention work, which spans quite a large group.
But I think this work that you're doing with a psychiatric population is even more difficult and more challenging. And I think that you make this point about self-awareness that as it's a little bit perhaps different than a facilitator when you're a psychotherapist. Well I shouldn't say a little, a lot different, because you're also being aware of all the people that are in the group and how you're also interacting with those people.
I'm wondering, I just want to take a step back about the duck pond. Do—I think you said, “I put the ducks in the duck pond.” Is that true? Do you take the ducks and put them in the pond or do the—
Kas:
Yes. I do it.
Jacquie:
You do it. Okay.
Kas:
Yes. They pass them down to me and I'll put them all in the duck pond.
Jacquie:
And you put them all in the duckpond. Okay. And then you use that as a metaphor to talk about—
Kas:
How unique they are and how they both create the space that they're in and share the space that they're in.
Jacquie:
Okay. Now that we've gotten to this step, and I think you talked about the psychological safety and the empathy. Is there empathy building? Do you feel that there is—because I've heard someone say: To have empathy for others, we have to have empathy for ourselves.
Kas:
Yes. I 100% percent agree with that.
Jacquie:
Yes. How do you see that having empathy for each other? How does that play out, let's say, in this duck activity?
Kas:
Well when—it’s the simplest thing. If someone says, “This is a square duck,” and we hear that and they hear themselves say this, they were not thinking about making a square duck, right? They make something and then they just assign a meaning to it. This is a square duck. At that moment, when we all are accepting of that duck being a square duck, that person then also accepts what came up out of them about this duck.
So that moment they're also, in a nonjudgmental way, appreciating what came up out of them as they describe this duck. So it's a mutual process happening at the same time. If other people in the group say, “That's not a duck. It’s just a couple of blocks together,” that person would have had the same attitude towards themselves: How stupid am I to call this thing. Look, I really kind of screwed things up. Now people think I’m frigging crazy or something or unable to kind of make a duck, right? They become really judgmental, harsh. Again, that's—some people will have that reaction. Some people will be incredibly angry and enraged with the group for, “Who the heck are you to tell me if this is a duck or not?”
So suddenly the anger would both stop any kind of connection with others and also will make them at some deep level feel that I cannot connect with others. People cannot see me. This is who I am. And they will have different visions of themselves. It's not empathic and it's not caring, but when the empathy and care is on the outside, people just soak it in and they are that way more so towards themselves. So it really goes both ways at the same time. And my job, I find, is to keep it going in that direction.
Jacquie:
Do you have that situation where somebody might say—someone says, “Well, this is my duck.” And somebody else spontaneously says, “No, it's not.” Have you had that happen?
Kas:
Yes. And I generally kind of say, “Wow, so your opinion is that duck is not that, but let's just try to focus on what Jacquie said about her duck.” Okay. “From Jacquie's perspective, this is the duck. From your perspective, something else. But here for this group, let's try to be as nonjudgmental as we can with each other.” And people might say, “Well, judgment isn't a bad thing.” And I say, “I completely agree with you. We need to judge things all the time to feel safe. I would love—I have to judge. I always judge. This is a safe place, not a safe place. Should I do this? Should I not do that? We judge to survive, to pick up what's the dangerous things. What's the safe things. How to engage. How to interact with our environment. Judging is essential. Judging is not a bad thing. But in this group, let’s just try practicing putting that away and just hearing other people exactly for wherever they're at and see how that feels like.” So that's how I would bring it in. I would not criticize people for judging. I will say, “Judging isn't a bad thing. It's an essential thing, but here let's just practice hearing each other in a nonjudgmental way and see what happens.”
Jacquie:
So just continuously modeling and reflecting back.
Kas:
Yes.
Jacquie:
Yes. Okay.
Kas:
I’m not criticizing people who criticize me. I’m trying to understand how they're criticizing me, trying to understand their points, acknowledge their point, whatever it is, and then bring them back in to try to play with a different language: Nonjudgmental acceptance of each other.
Jacquie:
Interesting. I think that was really—I think it's important too, because we talk about, “Let's not judge,” We're always like, “Don't judge,” when we're doing creative problem solving. It's like we hear that all the time. We shouldn't judge, but really you're absolutely right. Judging is an important part of decision-making. It's actually something that we need to do, but we need to do it at the right step and in the right stage, where it's appropriate.
But I like the way that you kind of reframe that because I think it gives people that can be, let's say, judging a little bit too much, an understanding of why they do it because it's for safety and it's something that we don’t think about.
Kas:
Yes. Yes. People who judge too much, there's something they're protecting, if you can judge so much, you really—there's something inside that's vulnerable, it hurts, needs protection. And the judgments really come as a way of distracting from that, in my opinion, and putting the problem outside and trying to distract from the hurt or vulnerability inside. I think that's where too much judgment comes in. And as soon as we are nonjudgmental, we become more vulnerable.
That’s the scary part, because if I'm nonjudgmental with you I've got to be nonjudgmental with what's happening inside of me, including my vulnerabilities, right? I have suddenly those vulnerabilities are bubbling up to the surface as I'm being nonjudgmental. And that's scary because sometimes I don't want to be vulnerable. So what better way to—kind of one way of pushing our vulnerabilities down is to judge that, that's not a safe thing to think about or feel. Let’s just push that aside.
And then we do the same thing with anything on the outside. That's not right. That's not correct. That's not the right duck. That's not—but that doesn't look like a duck. So that whole attitude is on the outside that really helps to protect ourselves from our own vulnerabilities, I find.
Jacquie:
Well, I think that this is such an interesting conversation because here you're doing this work within a psychiatric in-crisis setting, where people are in distress and you've gone and spoken to people initially ahead of time, they've come to the group. You're now giving them a bag of LEGO. They're building their idea of a duck in a minute. But a lot of the things that you have talked about are, believe it or not, also true within a corporate setting. Working with, let's say, a senior management team, because this idea of being able to allow each person to express themselves and to validate their model or their idea is key to allowing people then to become less judgmental and to take more risks and to become more open, which is needed in order to move senior management teams along, not just in a therapeutic setting but even in a corporate setting. So just hearing you talk about this, I think, is really interesting for anyone who might be listening because this idea of judging and saying: Oh, no, I'm not going to do that. We're not doing that. Really it could also be applied to risk-taking or to fear. So I think that’s really interesting.
Kas:
And don't forget creativity. Again, if you think of neuroscience and right brain, especially dreaming. When you're dreaming, your inner judge is quiet, which is your frontal lobe. And your right brain, your default, is just going and having fun and free associating and anything and everything is possible and all sorts of stuff is going on.
So it's a very non-judgmental, open, kind, compassionate way of experiencing whatever's inside your head. And we know after a good night's sleep or after your REM sleep, you wake up, you connect ideas and thoughts in very interesting new ways. And they become—you come up with creative solutions, right? Like when you sleep on things, generally you're allowing all those interesting new connections to be kind of put together. And I think empathy and then judgmental listening in a group setting that's a similar thing. It really opens you up to connect things that are not necessarily connected before, because things are so strict and by rule and by specific judgments, this has to happen first. And then the other thing has to happen. So that actually, as much as it creates safety and productivity, when we have judgments and structures, when it comes to creativity, I think we need to loosen that up to allow other things to come together in new configurations.
Jacquie:
Well this is this whole argument between efficiencies and effectiveness. So organizations that use, let's say Six Sigma, where everything is being monitored and measured, and there's a very systematic way to doing everything. The argument that I've heard people make is that it takes away from just that whole creativity, because there's—problems are like zero fractioned out.
Like we have removed every single activity that would perhaps be a bottleneck or cause us grief. And so when those are removed then there's no problems for people to solve. And it's interesting. I would love you to talk a little bit, because you mentioned this earlier in the week when we were doing something else, you mentioned how when people build with LEGO that they tend to enter a more of a dream state. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that was really interesting and maybe just explain the process of what our mind is doing and why it's important.
Kas:
Okay. So I can’t say all that I'm saying is factually proven or theoretically supported. However, play—just the act of play, when we are in the play mode. And I think being in the flow state is an aspect of play, but a little bit of amplified play. But in play modes, we are, again, nonjudgmental, we're in the moment, we are improvising, you're changing rules, we are putting—we are trying different ways and it's fun. And we don't really think about ourselves anymore. We are like less self-referential, kind of like we're not worried about how you look or what you're wearing and our mind is freed up. And it is like dream state for me, the play state, and it is an integral part of creativity and exploration.
And I feel that my left brain kind of goes to sleep when I'm really playing. And when I'm using my hands, especially, and again, my whole body comes into it, the whole, again, for me, mind and body are the same and I think we need our hands for us to think, for us to feel. And I think just working together all the time. And when we are playing with Lego, we are really bringing in the hands and the physical touch aspect of it. If I can—if I sit and think and think about different things, I'm really not utilizing my body as much, which is part of my brain, or I should say part of my mind, right? I'm just using my brain part of my mind in some ways. When you're actually thinking about things, I bet your brain is making constellations where you're actually doing things as you are thinking. I'm not thinking about: If I go and grab this cup and put it over there, such and such a thing might happen.
So in my brain, I'm also activating the action mode. For me to kind of make a story or make meaning of things, but it's then in a very linguistic, high-level cognitive function level. But if I’m actually using my hands, where I'm actually grabbing a cup and doing things or making models, I'm really utilizing a much bigger set of neural connections in my brain and hence my mind. So again, I'm not sure I'm explaining it right. I don't think I'm kind of like completely clear in my own head as I'm putting these words together.
Jacquie:
No. I think it's really interesting. I think as we start picking up the bricks, when a challenge is posed to us—so in this situation that's a duck. But it could be almost anything that we pose. As people start searching for the bricks and they start putting it together, we know because there has been some research conducted and scholarly written articles on the fact that people lose track of time when they start playing with the LEGO, which indicates that they're entering the flow state, Csikszentmihalyi's theory on flow. When we go into that and we start putting the models together and we start to, as you say, enter a dream state, which it wasn't until you said it the other day that I thought about how interesting that is.
I think what happens is you're right. We put ourselves aside, we put our goals aside, and we lose ourselves in play. And when we lose ourselves in play, even though we think we're—well we are perhaps adding meaning, we're constructing over and over again, probably different ideas. So all these loose ideas that are going around in our head as we're putting the model together, I think we come back into, let's say, that conscious state, when we then go to tell our story. And this is where I think that people surprise themselves because they tell the story and it wasn't the story, perhaps exactly. Because you can't get it completely right when you're building. I think you're like, oh, perhaps that's this and perhaps that’s that and you're running through different ideas in your mind, but it's not until you actually verbalize the story that it kind of all comes together. And I think—
Kas:
The thing is I think as you're integrating your right brain and your left brain. So you're playing and making and say in a dream state, a play state, and then you put words to it. And now you're getting your left brain activated and you're going back and forth between right-brain, left-brain activation. And you're getting a wonderful set of connections and the system becomes more cohesive and more settled. And I think it allows more interesting new phenomenon to emerge where again, we think about kind of like brain integration being positive and then you're actually playing and then using words to explain what it is that you're trying to do or express, and then you play again, and then you try to use your words again. This is you're using, a simple way to think of it, you're using way more of your brain than just using your left brain.
And another thing that you said, which I've really kind of found interesting, a neuroscientist who passed away Dr. Panksepp, and he looked at basic mammal emotional circuitries in the brain that we kind of share with all mammals. If the goal of all living things is to survive and grow, there are a set of those neural network connection, which is for growth and exploration. And those are—one is seeking. We have an inert neural network in us that is seeking—you might have seen in dogs when they're looking around and sniffing and looking for things, and we have that.
So we actually trigger that when you say, “Well, look for the LEGO man in your pile of LEGO.” You're actually triggering your seeking network. And then you have a caring network that we all have and dogs have. We care for our fellow humans, and when you hear them in a nonjudgmental way and empathizing with them, you're getting the caring circuits fired up.
And then we have play circuits. We actually have a neural network set for play. When you're playing LEGO, you get the play networks activated. So you got the seeking, caring, and playing. And the other one for exploration and reproduction would be sex. We don't do sex in Lego groups. That's the only one we don't do, but the other three.
So those four are the ones that we actually use for exploring and provocation after we feel safe. Now that the neural circuits we have that makes us safe or defends us: One is for anger, one is for fear, and one is for sadness. So we all have those things. So cats can get sad. Donkeys can get angry. And humans can have all of those.
So anger and fear and sadness are the ones that protect us and keeps us safe. And when we feel safe, then we get the curiosity, caring, play, and then sex to get us to grow and expand and explore. And I think in the LEGO groups, we do the seeking, caring, and playing, and we activate those, which I think is so powerful.
Jacquie:
Yes. Amazing. That is really interesting. Just sort of thinking about how we break it down. I think that we also, I mean, anger, fear, and sadness are also, depending on what kind of LEGO® Serious Play® session we're working on, these kinds of emotions are—perhaps can come up as well. And we’ve seen people make LEGO models and tell their story and become emotional and cry. And I think that also when somebody tells a story and somebody doesn't like it and can become somewhat angry over the story. So it's—but we're dealing with that in a really positive way by using ground rules and explaining the process. And as a facilitator, or maybe in psychotherapy refocusing and bringing it back to what we're doing, but I think this idea of seeking, caring, and playing and being present at every single step and getting people to think about it that way and embrace that can really create an environment where we can do a lot of work. Because this whole idea of bringing people together so that they can tell their story is all so that we can move people forward, whether it's in a group therapy session or whether it is in a strategy session.
Kas:
Right. Again, I'm not sure how much time we have, but what you're talking about the way I think of it is again, using another theory, by Dan Siegel: the window of tolerance. Some of our listeners may know about that. But when we are within our window of tolerance is when we can think most clearly, we can keep the past in mind and learn from it. We can have goals for the future, and we can be very much present in the moment to experience ourselves, to be able to empathize and see other people's perspectives. So when they're in our window of tolerance, that's when we can go in the flow state. I think my flow state is high up in the window of tolerance. You're energized, but you're high up in the window of tolerance. And if you go a little bit too high that's when you go into a very stressful state, the fight and flight, sympathetic nervous system, driven state of defense that something is not right. Something is wrong and I've got to be defending myself.
And if it goes too, too, too, too far, then you have a huge parasympathetic activation. They go into the free state. Unfortunately, people with trauma histories know a lot about that when they—when something is triggering, they go right into the free state that's associated. And all we trying to do, in my opinion, is keep people in the window of tolerance for as long as possible, and really widen that window of tolerance.
And in the flow state, you're having fun. You're energized but you're still within that window of tolerance in the higher areas of it, where we can actually feel more deeply, understand other people's perspectives, be excited about new things. And a lot of creativity kind of happens there, in my opinion. And we just want to keep people there. So you got to keep them safe. If someone suddenly is triggered by some horrible memory because of the LEGO bricks and they're angry, they're sad, they're fearful. Our job is to bring them back into that window of tolerance. And the way I would do it is by empathizing with them and by trying to appreciate where they're at by trying to stay with them in a nonjudgmental way. And we know that mutual empathy at those times really helps to bring people back into their window of tolerance, into that calm safe space, where they can do those exploration and caring and moving forward.
So for me, it's how to bring people back. In LSP groups, most of the time everyone is in their window of tolerance. They got time off work to play with Lego. That's frigging fantastic. That's great. So they're right there. They're playing. But once in a while, if someone is triggered and is out of their window of tolerance, I think the job is to kind of figure ways of bringing them back in. Sometimes they may have to step out to relax. Sometimes they may have to excuse themselves, and I think we should be okay with that. In my opinion, don't push someone back in. If they're triggered, don't dismiss that they're triggered because that's even more hurtful than trigger, I think. Really acknowledge and try to bring them back in. Ground rules helps a lot, I think.
Jacquie:
Yes. And I think that when people do get triggered, it's amazing how empathetic other people will be in that moment. Because I think that when we play with LEGO, we in these group sessions that we do in corporations I'll reference, if somebody is triggered, let's say we were on the job and we were just doing a regular work and somebody’s triggered, there's some eye-rolling or whatever. It's so-and-so having a meltdown again or whatever. They're not necessarily as empathetic because they're going around doing their job. They see some things maybe are not that helpful. But in one of these sessions, I have found that if somebody is triggered, the entire group comes into focus and shows that person the empathy and the support that they need.
So what I've seen is that when we play with LEGO, people tend to behave better than they do in normal work situations. Somebody's walking around saying, “I've lost my stapler,” nobody really cares. But in a LEGO session, if someone says, “I'm really trying to find that little crown,” other people are very quick to go, “Oh, I just saw one. It's over here.”
So it's interesting because I think that when you talk about the seeking, caring, playing that comes into one of these sessions, if we do have somebody that falls out and becomes upset or angry, other people tend to be more—maybe their window of tolerance is so open.
Kas:
Yes. The thing is that everyone's—I think most people's window of tolerance is open and they're in it. And it's contagious the same way that negative, intense emotions are contagious. Positive states are also contagious. So if you're open and caring and nonjudgmental when the person is triggered, those people can bring that person within his or her window of tolerance way more easily. Rather than if they're stressed, if they're going to run to do something else, the boss is yelling at them. They don't really have anything to give. Their window of tolerance is so narrow. It just doesn't really affect anybody else in a positive way. But when they're wide open, I think—I'm not religious, but if you look in church, like when people go to church and everyone is so loving and peaceful and kind, you just love it. You're there, all feel the same way, you just kind of pick it up, right? So I think the same thing happens, especially if we have a cohesive group who's having fun and playing with LEGO in a creative way. If someone is triggered, you have a good base of people to help the other person come into their window of tolerance.
Jacquie:
Right. And that is what I've seen over and over again, is that—and I'm just thinking of one example. I was doing an appreciation workshop where they had done a survey and the staff didn't feel appreciated. That was what came through in the survey. So I did this workshop on really, what makes you feel appreciated? How would you like to be appreciated? That was kind of like the question of the workshop. And this woman told the story about how her husband used to bring her flowers and he had just passed away. And so she told the story about him bringing her flowers and how she felt so appreciated. And then she started to cry. And of course the group was very supportive, and I think at first a little shocked that she started to cry, but then was very supportive of her. And she said, “This was a great opportunity because I haven't talked about it. And everybody knows I wasn't here for a couple of weeks. Now I'm back. Nobody really asked me and this gave me the opportunity to just talk about—I'm okay, but that memory just actually, even though I cried, it was a happy kind of—it was a mixed emotion of happiness as well to be able to share that story with you and to know that you cared.”
And so even in that situation it's so validating and so supportive that even though it did trigger someone, the whole group was able to come together and support that person. So it was really a wonderful kind of a beautiful moment. So I think that life is live, and I know in your group therapy it's—you never know what people are going to do. But I think that as facilitators, if we have the ground rules and we know what it is that kind of the container that we set up, then we're able to facilitate through that. And I always think too that we can always bring it back to the LEGO. We can always go back to that three-dimensional object that's in front of us and ask people to think about let's have a look back at the story that we told or let's look at the ducks that we built in order to refocus them again.
Kas:
For sure
Jacquie:
Maybe grounding. I don't know. Maybe it's a grounding activity.
Kas:
Very much so. Yes.
Mark:
Such a fascinating conversation. I'm going to bring it to a close by saying we need to have another one, because I think the insights that you brought forward in terms of mirror neurons and how they are really foundational for these higher functions of empathy, creative flow, and the way that it helps to have a physical thing to interact with to really ground you in that moment and the challenges that even a pane of glass can cause two people really feeling like empathy is possible. When you think about how many glasses, screens we spend our days looking through now, it just has such wide implications in terms of, how we find that grounding sense where we can be creative when we are disconnected physically from other people, how that inhibits our sense of empathy, of understanding of creativity and collaboration.
Kas:
For ourselves too kind of, Mark. Like I truly feel like I've done a lot of workshops that I was kind of moving in between in-person groups and Zoom groups. And when I went from computer group back into the room when people were there, I felt differently. I said, “Oh my God. I can feel my body. I can feel me. I have different sense of me.” When I was on the computer, it was muted. It's a different cognitive—different sense. But as soon as I went, it was—I'm talking like in one minute in a Zoom group, come down from your hotel room, next minute in the physical room with other people, significant shift in how you actually suddenly find your body and your feelings and you feel more whole as a person. And you're really missing that.
Mark:
No. I think that there's a lot to explore there in terms of how we find ways to re-physicalize our environment, when so many of our environments are digital. And I also feel like we're just touching upon an area that I find particularly fascinating, which is trauma and how we respond to trauma and the role that creativity can have in coming up with resilient responses to the challenges that face all of us. So instead of bringing it all to a close, which I like to try to do, I'm just suggesting let's keep this conversation open and come back for Chapter 2. To help other people perhaps initiate a conversation with you and just be aware of your work, where can people find you and connect with you online?
Kas:
Yes. On LinkedIn would be the best place.
Mark:
Okay
Kas:
I have had some ideas and thoughts and I've kind of put little things on LinkedIn. So if people want to see what I write or do, they can go there. We can connect through LinkedIn, also.
Mark:
Great. So that's Kasra Khorasani. Am I pronouncing that correctly?
Kas:
Right. Yes. Kasra Khorasani.
Mark:
Great. And the spelling of that will be in the show notes for anybody who wants to follow up and connect. Thank you so much for bringing such insight, both from a neurological perspective in terms of what's happening when we're in these groups and engaging with LEGO, but also just the wonderful warmth and empathy that you bring to all of these reflections. It was a real privilege to spend this time with you.
Kas:
Oh, thanks Mark. It was a lot of fun talking to you and Jacquie.
Jacquie:
All right. So Kas, we'll say goodbye to you. Let you get back to that important work that you do.
Kas:
Thanks very much and goodbye to you guys. Hope to talk soon.
Marks:
Yes. I hope so.
Jacquie:
Take care.
Mark:
Bye-bye
[ Conclusion ]
Mark:
That was such a fascinating conversation for me. He really helped me to understand, on a deeper level, what's happening for me when I'm in LEGO® Serious Play®, but also why it is that I find online meetings just disorienting and uncomfortable. And I think the work that he's doing and the way that it connects with the LEGO® Serious Play® methodology really is an area to explore for how we reconnect with our bodies and our full intelligence in a world that is more and more hybridized between in-person communication and online communication.
Jacquie:
His comment about mirror neurons and the plastic, like when we go in and you've got plexiglass and then you're wearing a mask and the other person's wearing a mask and just sort of how that is another added challenge for us in our day-to-day life. And I think this is in some ways an argument for bringing LEGO® Serious Play® into the Zoom meeting or the Zoom classroom. Because in LEGO® Serious Play®, people are building with their LEGO in the real world and then bringing that model and showing it on the computer screen, which is a way to connect with other people and connect with ourselves.
So when you have to pick up the bricks and you build something, and then you tell the story, you're connecting with yourself as well as you're connecting with others. And in this artificial world that we live in right now, I think that this is a nice way to bring the physical world back into this crazy online Zoom world that we're living in.
Mark:
I love that. I think that there's—that makes so much sense that there's that potential to recross that barrier and to create bridges with other people who were involved with similar activities and to add that physical dimension to online training. Why don't we try to experiment on that? Is there a prompt that the session suggested for you that we'd like to share with our listeners?
Jacquie:
Well, I'm thinking about the duck pond that he showed us. And I just think that here's an example of somebody that's taken the six brick activity that we shared with him in the LEGO® Serious Play® training that we did, because he is a LEGO® Serious Play® facilitator. So he kind of picked up on that: the six bricks and the duck and every duck is perfect. But he took it to that other step where it could be used with a psychiatric population, which I think has—that's his way of playing jazz. We showed him the piano and the music, and he took it off and created this other thing.
So I'd like to ask people, if there's LEGO® Serious Play® facilitators, if you're out there and you're doing something different with the duck that the rest of us don't know about and you'd like to share your story, build a duck. Send us a little bit of information on what you're up to because we’d love to hear. And if the rest of you are not LEGO® Serious Play® facilitators but you do have a bunch of LEGO and you would like to put six bricks together and make a duck or any other kind of animal, and just validate it by saying this duck is or these bricks are and send us a picture. We'd also love to see that too. If you're listening to this podcast in the community site, please just go ahead and put it right in the community site. If you are on our website or LinkedIn or wherever else you might be listening to this, you can just shoot us a picture and a note to hello@strategicplay.com. And we'd love to hear from you.
Mark:
Awesome.
Jacquie:
All right, Mark. Well, listen. You have a great rest of your day and we will chat again very soon.
Mark:
Yes, you too.
Jacquie:
Bye, for now.
Mark:
Bye, for now.
[ Outtakes ]
Jacquie:
In case people were wondering if I was in one of Kaz’s group therapies, no I wasn't.
Kas:
You could always join, Jacquie. There’s always room for you.
Jacquie:
Thank you Kas